IRFCA Mailing List Archive
Messages 4921 - 4940
From: Apurva Bahadur <>
Subject: [Fwd: EMU's and DMU's
Date: 04 Jan 1999 10:24:53 -0500
Indian railfan at work !
Thanks for identifying the Push Pull rake near Chennai, but I could have
sworn I saw
two such rakes.
Apurva
From: Rajan Mathew <>
Subject: Golden Rock Locos and other liveried locos ...
Date: 04 Jan 1999 19:16:39 -0500
Folks,
I've even spotted golden rock locos in Mumbai drawing the Madgaon Mumbai
express and Ratnagiri Dadar passenger on a few occassions. Its colours
definately stand out ...
The Matsyagandha Express is regularly hauled by a ED Erode loco. The
Netravati Express is normally hauled by Ernakulam locos. Ernakulam locos
are
also painted differently with a dominating yellow and a design in either
bright red or green
From: Krishnan Anand <>
Subject: Re: Some notes on the WDP 2
Date: 04 Jan 1999 20:07:36 -0500
>Those in the 14000+ series are WDM 2Cs. In the days of steam 14000+
>numbers
>were used by the WTs, 15000+ by WL and WWs and hence the diesels >began
their
>count from 16000+(WDM7, an exception, were 11001-15,
How different are the WDM7 from the others. I saw one of them at
Ernakulam South junction recently which is attached to the Ernakulam
Diesel Loco shed. It had the Rajdhani sort of livery on it and it was
numbered 11007. DO WDM 3,4,5,6 exists. If so where can they be spotted.
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From: Apurva Bahadur <>
Subject: Push Pull rakes
Date: 04 Jan 1999 21:28:23 -0500
> What you are talking about is the Chennai-Tirupathi Sapthagiri express
> where the WAM4 is at one end and the operation is at the other. This
was
> introduced to lessen the changeover time at Renigunta towards
Tirupathi.
> >From what i understood from a running staff at Channai was that only
the
> important controls was made available at the non-loco end. Both ends
are
> manned in this case.
How does the Sapthagiri Express operate? The loco always faces Chennai
Central ? Is the
Renigunta - Tirupati section electrified ? Or does a WDM 2 haul the
rake towards TPTY?
Does the Sapthagiri have toilets ? The rest of the IR (specially the
Mumbai Pune section
should run a few push pull rakes (loco facing Mumbai end) and save on
the banker and its
associated delays.I doubt very much if the non powered 'cab' of the
Sapthagiri Exp
contains any locomotive power related gauges, only the speedo, brake
gauges, and the
horn/ wiper control. Like you said the cab contains only the basic
instruments and the
WAG 5 / WAM 4 will be manned by a competent operator who would be
overseeing any
overloads etc.
Which lead me to the next question - can a loco be driven without really
looking at the
power gauges ? I know for sure that the drivers operating out of Pune do
not accept a
loco from the shed with defective gauges.
Do any of the Push Pull rakes abroad have power gauges in the non
powered end ?
Apurva
From: Apurva Bahadur <>
Subject: Derailed electric locos
Date: 05 Jan 1999 00:56:17 -0500
Harsh Vardhan wrote:
> I second that, but even if the panto falls down there is every
possibility
> that the mangled wreck may touch the live wire directly(as it happened
in
> the recent `Khanna' collision).
If the wreck touches the OHE, there would be a short circuit and the
substation
would trip.
> Also the panto on its own cannot pass the
> current through the train body as it is properly insulated and
arrested and
> takes the HT current to the traction motor only whose earth ends are
> connected to the rails through the wheel axles by carbon brushes.
I would like to rephrase my query. There is a primary 25 KV circuit
which flows
through the panto - transformer primary - EHT switchgear and the wheels
to
rails. Then there is the secondary circuit of the transformer output -
tap
changer -rectifier - motor whose return path is through the carbon
brushes in
the commutator to the transformer windings. This circuit is around 750
VDC with
really heavy currents. So how does the 25 KV circuit - connected at one
end to
the panto and the other end to the rails via the rails get transferred
from the
transformer primary to the wheels ? Is there a rubbing contact between
the loco
body and the wheel or do the bearings themselves act as the current
conductors?
> You can try passing current in a heater coil from one end and you can
hold
> it from the other without feeling the shock. This is how earthing of a
motor
> works and the reason why you don't feel the current when you touch the
> rails.
>
> In the event that the live wire comes in contact with the train(which
is
> also
> a huge earth mass) or even if it breaks down and falls on
ground/rails, the
> nearest breaker will open in less than fraction of a second due to
heavy
> current leakage.
Yes, I do agree with you. The substation has a number of sophisticated
load
detectors which would trip the circuit in the event of a short circuit.
> The goods trains must be turning turtle on electrified sections on
daily
> basis if not more. Not even once does one hear about the crew being
> electrocuted in these collisions/derailments.
>
> The only possibility of killing yourself by traction power is to touch
the
> live wire `directly' while you are earthed.
The hypothetical situation is something like that - the loco has
derailed while
moving slowly - the wheels are not touching the rails and they are
insulated
from the rails by say the concrete sleepers. The panto is still touching
the OHE
but there is no short circuit so the sub station breaker does not open.
This is
equivalent of a loco which had dropped the panto. The substation can
never tell
the difference. The reduction in current will not cause the circuit
breaker to
trip. The entire loco body is charged to the OHE potential and the
return path
through the rails is broken. As long as the driver remains inside the
cab, he is
connected only to the OHE potential and he is safe. This is equivalent
to a
bird sitting on a OHE wire without any ill effect, but when the driver
is to
leave the cab, the OHE potential would find a path to the return
through his
body. Since the 25 KV potential jumps gaps of 50 cms of so, the driver
would get
electrocuted as he steps on to the ground.
.
The mail from Raymond Marsh actually supports that argument, where the
Melbourne authorities instruct the driver of a derailed tram to jump
clear of
the tram without touching anything metallic. But then a tram runs at 650
VDC
while a main line loco runs at 25,000 VAC and at that potential the
electricity
easily arcs across large gaps.
Apurva
From: Apurva Bahadur <>
Subject: Re: Modified WDP2 picture
Date: 05 Jan 1999 00:59:01 -0500
Hola Phil,
When I scanned the WDP 2 pic, I found that if we scanned it dark (0 %
brighteness/contrast) the bogie and fuel tank details were unclear.
Hence I made it brighter but when the "master" touches up my pic I can
only be very
pleased. I have seriously thinking of entering in the 'Wormald Open'
contest, for
India is the land of smoking Alcos. Although lately the replacement of
Woodwards
governor with a GE item and introduction of the 'fuel efficiency kit'
has reduced the smokescreens somewhat. During footplating, my favourite
position is long hood leading, where the big engine is before you and
every nudge of the throttle sends a plume of fragrant smoke into the sky
(and into the cab).
The dynamic brakes is one of the charms of the WDM 2. As far as the Pune
shed is concerned, the drivers are told to use the DBs as much as
possible. They
have been told that DBs actually save fuel - although I do not see how.
The
DB definitely saves brake blocks (I was told my driver friends that
every
application of the train brakes use up Rs. 600/- worth of brake blocks).
But the WDM 2 goes into the 4th notch speed when the DB is operated (to
cool the
motors, now working as generators, by the engine driven blowers )and
that must
be using extra fuel. The dynamic brake grid itself is cooled by a noisy
blower
whose motor is powered by the generated current from the traction motors
themselves. Thus stronger the braking action, more the scream from the
short hood.
If the short hood door is not closed properly, you can feel the searing
hot
blast of air from the grids as the loco slows down. If you look at the
coupler between the loco and the first coach, you can see the loco
trying to dig it's heels into
the ground, while the entire unbraked rake and its momentum is trying to
push against the recalcitrant loco.
As far as the WDM 2 concerned, there are two levers in the control stand
located in the same axis. One is the nine position (zero + eight
notches)
throttle bar and the other (located in the rear of the stand) is the
motoring/braking lever. During normal running, the second bar is in the
motoring position and the throttle is one of the eight notches. There is
a window above the throttle bar which indicates the notch number (0, 1,2
---8) while the loco is in the 'motoring' position. During dynamic
brakes, the throttle is brought to zero position and the
motoring/braking lever is brought out of its lock, as the motoring lever
is brought forward, the power contactor / relays in the control cabinet
makes a sharp sound like a shoe hitting a wooden floor. The window now
indicates the letter 'B'. More the dynamic brakes - bigger the letter B
in the window. The 'loadmeter' also shows the amount of current that the
loco's motors are generating, in case of freight trains, the loadmeter
frequently goes into the '1 hour only' ratings.
Some Pune drivers use dynamic to slow down from cruising speed to say
around 20 Kmph and then use the loco/train brakes to come to a dead
stop. Others
use the dynamic brakes even as the loco is coming to a stop. As the loco
stops,
the current produced by the motors drops to zero and the screaming
blower
also dies off , but engine is still in the dynamic brakes mode and the
engine is
racing away in the 4th notch. The fast turning engine helps to recreate
vacuum/
air pressure quicker for a quicker getaway. Once the train is standing
still
the driver now takes off the motoring/ braking lever to motoring
position and the big engine comes back to its loping idle. If you are
lucky the governor gives a few kicks on its own and the engine races
momentarily giving a few deep barks before winding
down.
If you see a loco engine racing as soon at it stops, you can be sure
that the
train was stopped using dynamics.
Apurva
Philip Wormald wrote:
> Apurva,
> I hope you don't mind, but I altered the contrast of the picture you
sent
> out, it looks much better now. At least it does at my end. (It comes
as a
> separate mail, as I send it to quite a few people at one go).
> Yes the IR list is quiet at the moment, I must admit my favourite chat
is
> about the Locos, I get really interested when black smoke and dynamic
brakes
> get mentioned!
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil
> PWormald@alco.email
From: KRISHNA T S <>
Subject: Re: Push Pull rakes
Date: 05 Jan 1999 04:11:25 -0500
Hi Apurva
The Loco for the Sapthagiri express always faces Chennai.
The RU-TPTY section is also electrified.
The Sapthagiri express is made up of 1 guard/luggage/control cab coach,
one AC chair car coach and approx 8 - 10 2nd class sleeper coaches. All
of these have toilets. The guard travels in the loco cab on the trip out
of Chennai and in the unpowered cab in the return direction.
There is always one additional operator in the loco of this train along
with the guard.
Krishna
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>Message-ID: <3691A2F7.AE850C7F@vsnl.email
>Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:58:23 +0530
>From: Apurva Bahadur <iti@vsnl.email
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: IRFCA <irfca@cs.email Krishnan Anand <krish_nand@hotmail.email
>Subject: Push Pull rakes
>References: <36910775.AFA67D95@vsnl.email
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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>
>> What you are talking about is the Chennai-Tirupathi Sapthagiri
express
>> where the WAM4 is at one end and the operation is at the other. This
was
>> introduced to lessen the changeover time at Renigunta towards
Tirupathi.
>> >From what i understood from a running staff at Channai was that only
the
>> important controls was made available at the non-loco end. Both ends
are
>> manned in this case.
>
>How does the Sapthagiri Express operate? The loco always faces Chennai
Central ? Is the
>Renigunta - Tirupati section electrified ? Or does a WDM 2 haul the
rake towards TPTY?
>Does the Sapthagiri have toilets ? The rest of the IR (specially the
Mumbai Pune section
>should run a few push pull rakes (loco facing Mumbai end) and save on
the banker and its
>associated delays.I doubt very much if the non powered 'cab' of the
Sapthagiri Exp
>contains any locomotive power related gauges, only the speedo, brake
gauges, and the
>horn/ wiper control. Like you said the cab contains only the basic
instruments and the
>WAG 5 / WAM 4 will be manned by a competent operator who would be
overseeing any
>overloads etc.
>Which lead me to the next question - can a loco be driven without
really looking at the
>power gauges ? I know for sure that the drivers operating out of Pune
do not accept a
>loco from the shed with defective gauges.
>
>Do any of the Push Pull rakes abroad have power gauges in the non
powered end ?
>
>Apurva
>
>
>
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From: Neki Impex S.A. <>
Subject: Re: Derailed electric locos
Date: 05 Jan 1999 05:15:24 -0500
Is there a rubbing contact between the loco
>body and the wheel or do the bearings themselves act as the current
conductors?
I suppose there is a rubbing contact between the loco body and the wheel
axle, since the axle has the bearings not the wheel itself, the current
wont flow thru the bearings.
>
>The hypothetical situation is something like that - the loco has
derailed
while
>moving slowly - the wheels are not touching the rails and they are
insulated
>from the rails by say the concrete sleepers. The panto is still
touching
the OHE
>but there is no short circuit so the sub station breaker does not open.
This is
>equivalent of a loco which had dropped the panto. The substation can
never
tell
>the difference. The reduction in current will not cause the circuit
breaker to
>trip. The entire loco body is charged to the OHE potential and the
return
path
>through the rails is broken. As long as the driver remains inside the
cab,
he is
>connected only to the OHE potential and he is safe. This is equivalent
to a
>bird sitting on a OHE wire without any ill effect, but when the driver
is to
>leave the cab, the OHE potential would find a path to the return
through his
>body. Since the 25 KV potential jumps gaps of 50 cms of so, the driver
would get
>electrocuted as he steps on to the ground.
>.
>The mail from Raymond Marsh actually supports that argument, where the
>Melbourne authorities instruct the driver of a derailed tram to jump
clear of
>the tram without touching anything metallic. But then a tram runs at
650 VDC
>while a main line loco runs at 25,000 VAC and at that potential the
electricity
>easily arcs across large gaps.
What if in a similar situation: the train is derailed, insulated by the
sleepers, and the whole train is "live", some one is using the toilet,
(washing hands or urinating) and the liquid is flowing down the drain on
to
the rails, wont that create arcing?
Regards
Suresh
<A HREF="http://www.trainweb.org/panama">http://www.trainweb.org/panama</A>
From: ranand <>
Subject: Re: Push Pull rakes
Date: 05 Jan 1999 05:54:51 -0500
Of all the countries that I know, Germany is one of the biggest
users of electric push-pull rakes even for suburban services. I believe
that their driving cabs have full instrumentation. These are
conventional
electric
locos.
Many high speed rail systems also use push-pull rakes but they are
usualy specifically designed for it. In this category, you have the
British
IC 225
and the German ICE2 as examples.
Anand
Internet: anand@watson.email
External tel: (914) 784 7054
Notes: Rangachari Anand/Watson/IBM@IBMUS
Tie-line: 863 7054
From: Krishnan Anand <>
Subject: Re: Push Pull rakes
Date: 05 Jan 1999 06:51:42 -0500
Hi Apurva
>The Loco for the Sapthagiri express always faces Chennai.
What Krishna says is perfect. While going to TPTY till Renigunta the
driver in control cab manages the show. I am not too sure of what are
all the controls available to him in the control cab. All i was told is
the basics. I guess the master control is at the rear end with the
driver on the WAM4 Loco. Interestingly the whole train has a similar
livery like the old Vaigai express including the WAM4 Loco. It is like
half cream and half light green with the z-type stripes running across
the centre.
>The RU-TPTY section is also electrified.
>The Sapthagiri express is made up of 1 guard/luggage/control cab
>coach,
>one AC chair car coach and approx 8 - 10 2nd class sleeper coaches.
There are 2 Second class chair-car reservation coaches(i hope this has
not changed) and 8 second class sleeper rakes (passenger type)with the
regular facilities.
While in the return direction it is like a normal express train manned
by a loco at the front and the guard sits at the control cab and the
assistant moves to the the Loco. The whole train has a similar set-up as
an EMU especially the coupling wires (3 of them) between coaches.
Kind regards,
Anand.K
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From: GlynThomas <>
Subject: Updated Web Site
Date: 05 Jan 1999 13:29:21 -0500
Folks,
several people have told me that they couldn't access my web site on the
AOL
server. So for the New Year I have rewritten the site, and moved it to a
Demon
server which will hopefully be more reliable (as well as giving me more
space
to expand the site). In addition to the old material, I have updated the
Indian Railway web links (sorry if I've missed anyone, let me know), I
have
also added the old IRSG book list, and plans of the YDM2 diesels to the
research section.
The new URL is <A HREF="http://www.gtmach.demon.co.uk/frame.html">http://www.gtmach.demon.co.uk/frame.html</A> (railways.html
if your
browser doesn't support frames).
Glyn
From: prakash <>
Subject: Re: Push Pull rakes
Date: 05 Jan 1999 20:17:02 -0500
Apurva,
In this case, the track is AC and the distance is more than
150 kms. Therefore, there is a good chance that a dead zone
will appear when phase changes in overhead line.
The phase change situation is exactly identical to "dead zone"
in AC/DC changeover minus lowering the pantograph. Whether
driver is willing to tolerate or not, this process does
require indicator lamps for auxilliaries like compressor,
exhauster, voltmeter. Every loco with DC electric motors
require presence of ammeter so that you do not exceed 1000 amps.
Neiter WAG4 or WAM4 have AC motors.
Prakash
Apurva Bahadur <iti@vsnl.email on 01/04/99 09:28:23 PM
To: IRFCA <irfca@cs.email Krishnan Anand <krish_nand@hotmail.email
cc: (bcc: Prakash Tendulkar/Santa Teresa/IBM)
Subject: Push Pull rakes
> What you are talking about is the Chennai-Tirupathi Sapthagiri express
> where the WAM4 is at one end and the operation is at the other. This
was
> introduced to lessen the changeover time at Renigunta towards
Tirupathi.
> >From what i understood from a running staff at Channai was that only
the
> important controls was made available at the non-loco end. Both ends
are
> manned in this case.
How does the Sapthagiri Express operate? The loco always faces Chennai
Central ? Is the
Renigunta - Tirupati section electrified ? Or does a WDM 2 haul the
rake
towards TPTY?
Does the Sapthagiri have toilets ? The rest of the IR (specially the
Mumbai
Pune section
should run a few push pull rakes (loco facing Mumbai end) and save on
the
banker and its
associated delays.I doubt very much if the non powered 'cab' of the
Sapthagiri Exp
contains any locomotive power related gauges, only the speedo, brake
gauges, and the
horn/ wiper control. Like you said the cab contains only the basic
instruments and the
WAG 5 / WAM 4 will be manned by a competent operator who would be
overseeing any
overloads etc.
Which lead me to the next question - can a loco be driven without really
looking at the
power gauges ? I know for sure that the drivers operating out of Pune do
not accept a
loco from the shed with defective gauges.
Do any of the Push Pull rakes abroad have power gauges in the non
powered
end ?
Apurva
From: prakash <>
Subject: Re: Push Pull rakes
Date: 05 Jan 1999 20:22:11 -0500
Apurva,
Pls disregard my earlier posting. The additional operator can
monitor/perform these functions and keep driver informed by using
walkie-talkie. Thanks to Krishna for clarification.
Prakash
"KRISHNA T S" <krishaxe@hotmail.email on 01/05/99 04:11:25 AM
To: iti@vsnl.email
cc: irfca@cs.email (bcc: Prakash Tendulkar/Santa Teresa/IBM)
Subject: Re: Push Pull rakes
Hi Apurva
The Loco for the Sapthagiri express always faces Chennai.
The RU-TPTY section is also electrified.
The Sapthagiri express is made up of 1 guard/luggage/control cab coach,
one AC chair car coach and approx 8 - 10 2nd class sleeper coaches. All
of these have toilets. The guard travels in the loco cab on the trip out
of Chennai and in the unpowered cab in the return direction.
There is always one additional operator in the loco of this train along
with the guard.
Krishna
From: Krishnan Anand <>
Subject: Voltage distribution in OHT
Date: 05 Jan 1999 23:45:49 -0500
Hi all,
I have heard people say that the voltage is not even in the
overhead traction throughout and there are certain zones where there is
a drop and usually the panto is momentarily brought down. Is this true ?
If yes why does this happen? Anyone to answer this ?
Kind regards,
Anand.K
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From: Apurva Bahadur <>
Subject: Re: Voltage distribution in OHT
Date: 06 Jan 1999 01:01:42 -0500
Krishnan Anand wrote:
> Hi all,
> I have heard people say that the voltage is not even in the
> overhead traction throughout and there are certain zones where there
is
> a drop and usually the panto is momentarily brought down. Is this true
?
> If yes why does this happen? Anyone to answer this ?
>
The substation connects to the OHE on end and the rails on the other.
The
loco picks up the current from the OHE and returns it to the substation
via
the rails. The voltage will be highest near the substation and lowest at
the
point furthest away from the substation. The panto is held against the
wires
by compressed air and will remain in position even if the voltage drops
to
zero, as long as the air pressure is present in the reservoir. I have
seen a
WCM 4 waiting at Pune Jn with zero volts on the line voltmeter. The
fault
was rectified after about 15 minutes and I have witnessed the meter jump
from 0 to 1500 V. During all this period, the panto was continuously up.
There is a battery driven 'baby compressor' which allows the air
pressure to
be built up initially so that the panto can be raised. After the panto
is
raised, the main air compressor is started and the 'baby' can be shut
down.
I remember someone in the Pune shed telling me (but cannot confirm) that
the
WCG 1 (EF/1) locos had a manually operated air pump (like a cycle tyre
pump), although the 'No Problem Saheb' book show a pole being used to
push
the panto and start the WCG1.The voltage limits defined by the RDSO for
the
new MEMU (main line EMU ) is that it should work satisfactorily between
18.5
KV - 30 KV. I suppose a mainline loco will also have similar specs.
Apurva
From: Apurva Bahadur <>
Subject: [Fwd: in love of the WDM2
Date: 06 Jan 1999 02:47:11 -0500
More promising railfans waiting to join the IRFCA bandwagon
From: Apurva Bahadur <>
Subject: [Fwd: in love of the WDM2
Date: 06 Jan 1999 05:23:14 -0500
We need this guy on our forum pronto
From: ranand <>
Subject: Re: Voltage distribution in OHT
Date: 06 Jan 1999 06:47:25 -0500
I recall from many years ago that in the Mumbai area DC electric system,
there are conducting straps which bridge each fishplate (for electrical
continuity I suppose). Are these still there?
Anand
Internet: anand@watson.email
External tel: (914) 784 7054
Notes: Rangachari Anand/Watson/IBM@IBMUS
Tie-line: 863 7054
From: prakash <>
Subject: Pictures by Viraf & Sarosh
Date: 06 Jan 1999 06:52:36 -0500
Folks,
I am pleased to announce that the latest set of 27
pictures by Viraf and Sarosh is available on the web.
The URL is <A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/irfca/thats.htm">http://members.tripod.com/irfca/thats.htm</A>
or go to <A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/irfca/">http://members.tripod.com/irfca/</A> and click
on "That's Us".
Please do not forget to send your compliments to them.
Prakash
From: Srikant Subramaniam <>
Subject: mailing list
Date: 06 Jan 1999 17:35:42 -0500
Could you pl add my name to the mailing list?
Thanks.
--
Srikant.
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